Eshin Direct

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1. Permalink # Oooo said

   I always tot you are one of the free speech support of mine…hmm where did that nadim go?

2. Permalink # Eshin said

   This isn’t free speach. This woman didn’t expect her picture to be plastered up on someone’s site, I’d imagine and for lewd comments to be passed.

   Just because you have the right to free speech doesn’t mean that you should say everything that comes to your mind. I’m not exercising control over this. I’m just calling for common decency to be exercised, and offering an opinion on when people say stupid, crass and vulgar things. Equally, I’m exercising my right to free speech and judging them on the basis of their comments, which when they say it in public, leaves them open to criticism.

   With you, anything you do in public, be prepared for people to disagree, agree, criticise or judge you on your behaviour. If you believe in something, then don’t let yourself be bullied into doing something you don’t want to do. I don’t think this other blogger will take down the picture or the posts, and I wouldn’t dream of forcing him to because it’s his blog and his right (except of course, the copyright infringement issue).

   Think about this – if I took your picture of you from your website, posted it up, what would you think? If I made comments of a vulgar nature about you…”oh, I’d do her up the ass, etc.” would you be happy about that? Well, I could, but I don’t because in my book it just ain’t right. Nor if anyone posted vulgar comments about you on my website, would I tolerate that.

   I’m just suggesting that free speech still needs checks and balances. If not by the government or society, then just by common decency.

3. Permalink # Oooo said

   right, I wouldnt be happy about it if you do that. but hey, who doesnt bitch about things??? have you never bitch about some gals or things like ” oh that girl looks like a slut” think about it, she wasnt born to be bitched but hey, why are we ppl still doing it… so whats the different between putting it up on web and gossiping about it or telling others behind another’s back??

4. Permalink # Eshin said

   To Marios,

   Free speech is important. But it’s still about respect and decency.

   If we let people say or do things without speaking out, then we are also not progressing. If free speech is taken to the extreme, then Hitler was entitled to say those things about the Jews and bang on about the master race. If free speech is taken to the extreme, then we will let paedophiles run rampant with their ideas and their freedom of expression, the right to post pictures up of little girls.

   Free speech is never about being free to do or say things without the consequences of that. If we don’t want the government or “authority” to do so, we have the obligation to speak out against it as other people.

   It’s as another blogger, Glutter, put it – checks and balances.

   I’m losing focus here. My problem is more with the comments rather than the posting of the picture (although I do have problems with that, but as you say, I don’t have a moral footing to speak on that). The comments disgust me and I’m speaking out against that.

   The commentators have no class, no manners and no proper upbringing. Free speechers will be no doubt happy to let these people say what they will. I say their parents should have done a better job.

   Free speech was never about this. In the UK, it’s considered the crime of assault to verbally threaten violence on someone. Should we let people carry out the behaviour of verbally threaten violence against someone? It’s in their right, under the freedom of speech and expression model advocated by some. But no, we are not a “free to say whatever you want, express yourself however you want” society. We are society and we have codes of conduct (laws or otherwise) that ensure that we can live together as a community.

5. Permalink # Eshin said

   The question is whether you condone such behaviour or not.

   Sure, she puts herself up for public scrutiny when she decides to model, just as we put our images on the ‘net for the same scrutiny.

   But I think that sometimes in our attempt to advocate free speach and people’s right to express themselves, by allowing people to say what they want, do what they want, and act in certain ways, can go too far.

   When it infringes on someone’s right to be treated with respect and decency in a public sphere, then it is wrong. And as a model, she is still afforded the rights and protections of the international copyright laws, which gives her the right to show where her image is shown and for what use. This isn’t simply a case of morality, it’s also a case of legality.

   If you argue otherwise, then excuse me while I go and upload your pictures to the nearest porn server and label it “Amateur Chinese Lady poses in Bikini”. Hey, it’s my right to bitch and gossip, and let everyone else gossip about it.

   Sure I’ve gossiped about people in my time, but I know it’s wrong. Sure, I’ve said things about people that would be considered crass and vulgur. I make judgements like that every time I go out on the pull. But I refuse to allow myself to post something in public and to disrespect someone with no good reason. Being rude should not be a public right in modern civilized society.

   If anyone feels the need to point out my criticism of William Hung, he put himself up to be an idol and critique. I’m in my right to do so.

6. Permalink # Marios said

   I’m not going to argue with you about the rights and wrongs of this topic, but I do feel that free speech is important. If you don’t like something someone is posting on their site, then don’t read that site. Simple answer but it is a simple problem. I’m not saying what they’re doing is morally right, but it is their right.

   …that cheapen the woman in question, who certainly doesn’t expect to be held up for lustful ogling by his audience.

   I’m also against such lewd comments being posted publicly, but I would suggest that it is naive to believe that a model (male or female) who poses (nude or clothed) for a picture isn’t expecting to be ogled by a section of the people that see it. Small point, but I think you were getting carried away here…

   Also, as you say, I wouldn’t bang on about copyright infingement since I’m sure we all do it to some extent. Breaking that law is breaking that law, whatever the moral situation of a particular instance.

7. Permalink # Giles said

   Understand totally and agree on most parts. Trouble is nothing can be done about it, unless the Web was built over again and stricter measures put in place to limit spam/porno’s etc.,

   I guess the only way we can make our stand is to not visit the site(s) in question!

8. Permalink # Oooo said

   if you say check and balance..then perhaps you should put this in ” I say their parents should have done a better job.” you are obviously not practicing what you preached

9. Permalink # Eshin said

   Interesting…

   It is about market forces and yes, I would be out of luck(?).

   I totally agree with you on the comments and I enjoy different perspectives on the issues that I post. It helps either change my opinion or it consolidates it into more coherent thoughts. I am well aware that people will exercise their right to reply if you give them the opportunity. I am prepared for critique and praise alike. (Actually, I’m now at home crying over this).

   Maybe you misunderstand my responses to the various comments. It’s not that I’m feeling slighted or in the least bit flustered about people not agreeing with me. I merely feel if someone is bothered to post on my site, then I can do them the courtesy of giving them a response, sometimes even one that is semi-coherent.

   I’m not quite sure what makes the point moot? I really wasn’t commenting on pornographic magazines but more on what was happening on different blogs. In an environment such as a pornographic magazine, you are there for one reason and one reason only. My comments are referring to a blog that seems to encourage intelligent way of thinking yet feels the need to post up images of women and gets a response to that. My condemnation was focused more on the commentators behaviour rather than the blog owners. Which, I feel I’m entitled to do on my own site.

   I couldn’t care less what happens in pornographic magazines because it’s usually all fiction. Most of the girls are there because they were paid to do so, and usually fully aware of the nature and style of the publication before hand. They have to give consent to this. I’m basing this on my UK knowledge before people start wanting to point out issues with the sex trade in Asia. They chose to pose naked, they chose the publications (through release agreements), so they get what they deserve in a way.

   And yes, you are right. I am incorrect in stating it as fact and it should have been an allegation. Although, now I am curious to see evidence of copyright ownership.

10. Permalink # Eshin said

    Right well, the last two posts sort of help my argument somewhat on this.

    To Giles, yes, the only course of action, if it bothers me so much, is to not visit the site in question. But I feel, in the spirit of free speech, that I want to express an opinion on it. So hence, I post it up here rather than messing around on someone else’s blog, where it might start a bickering match. Hopefully, someone will read my blog and understand that maybe this behaviour is not right. (Not slamming you, just explaining my reasons for posting on this).

    And to Marios, I get what you are saying and I think you make my point for me. “Their punishment” is ostracism, as you say, but if I don’t post up my thoughts on how they behave, and no-one else does, then we condone such behaviour.

    I don’t think attacking someone on their moral shortcomings will lead to the chaos and anarchy that you describe. Society has always defined what is acceptable and not acceptable (written laws and unwritten mores), by not speaking out, and being silent, do we not condone them to let them continue such behaviour?

    While this case perhaps does not warrant the power and forcefulness of the following quote, it’s still helps provide some food for thought on the matter.

    “All that is needed for evil to prosper, is for good men to do nothing.”

    Inaction is sometimes worse than taking action.

11. Permalink # Marios said

    OK hold on here. Clearly I didn’t make myself clear. What I am condoning – free speech – is exactly that: free speech. Speaking freely is different to a paedophile posting an image on the net, that isn’t a thought or an idea, it’s an action. And I think that all sensible people are clear that when they say free speech, it is implied that that speech lies within the bounds of the law. Hence if someone threatens physical harm or says disturbing things about little girls they may be exercising free speech but they are outside the law, and will be prosecuted for it (or if not then I agree with you that it is our moral duty to speak out against it).

    However, the comments relating to that picture, whilst unpleasant, are not contravening any law that I know of. I agree with you that they smack of a poor upbringing or a less-than-pure mind, but I won’t argue their right to have their say. Their punishment, should they persist with these public ventings, is that “ordinary” people will begin to shun them and they will find themselves very lonely. If this upsets them they may be moved to change their ways and conform to decency, otherwise they may be happy with their chosen life. Each to his own I say.

    What you are suggesting borders, in my opinion, on a form of vigilantiism (no idea how to spell that) that I think the world can do without. I’m not saying that is what you are doing here, but if the whole world was to attack its neighbour on their moral shortcomings I think we’d have some chaos on our hands. Laws are there (some laws anyway) to prevent the sickest minds in society (murderers, rapists etc…) from taking part in it. For those sick people still within the limits of the law let our silence and turned backs be their punishment.

    (p.s. just to reiterate what I said to you in private – I’m just arguing words with you here, nothing personal)

12. Permalink # Eshin said

    Oooo, errr…what?

    Explain to me how I am not practicising what I preach? You’ll have to be more explicit because there are numerous examples of me not practicing what I preach.

    In any case, just be warned that any implication of an insult to my family has it’s consequences. Closer people than you to me have found that out.

    And yes, those people that feel that I’ve insulted their families can come an file grievance with me if they so wish.

13. Permalink # Phil said

    I find this particular topic hilarious having been slandered as an old white pervert by one of the bloggers you mention even though I personally dont post soft core pictures.

    Its this simple. Market forces. Dont like it dont read it. As long as it does not break the appropriate obscenity laws or is defamatory or misleading in any way you are out of luck.

    You can feel free to comment but people will exercise their right to reply in your comments because that is what comments are there for – not to kiss arse and just be agreed with. If you can’t take that don’t have comments (these are general views and I have not you in mind as I write them).

    If you write an opinion expect to have it agreed or disagreed with. If you defame someone (something that happened to me) expect a reaction akin to using depleted uranium or a letter from lawyers.

    Two more things. When these images are used in softcore magazines (and some are actually part of a larger series that include hardcore pornography) the text around those images is considerably more derogatory than that seen in GD. I think that makes that point moot.

    Lastly, you make an overt claim of copyright theft. Can you state that for a fact based on evidence or prior knowledge? You did not just alledge, you stated as fact.

14. Permalink # Oooo said

    No..I am not going into that but what it was shown really clearly to me when you says that….”I say their parents should have done a better job” and was wondering what has parents got to do with their child actions? but nevertheless..I still support free speech. without those, ppl are just puting on a fake font…. no fake friends for me I rather hear the truth about things and life even if they sounds really bad and terrible.

15. Permalink # Phil said

    Who says a blog cannot be an adult blog. A magazine is a magazine and they come in different forms. Weblogs also come in different forms. There are in fact specialty adult weblogs. Editorial policy is not limited to just pposting links to news articles – a blog can have whatever the author wants. You go to different blogs for different reasons. Want porn? Go to a porno blog. In this case Conrad posts pictures no stronger than seen in the Sun so I really don’t think pornography is the right word unless you are kin to Mary Whitehouse

16. Permalink # Eshin said

    Oooo…just exactly needed clarifification on what you were referring to.

    Parents are responsible for providing their children with a moral center and give them guidelines on how to behave and think. Of course, a person is responsible for their own actions but you cannot deny that social upbringing plays a role in the future person that someone is. No person can say that their lives are all their own’s and that they shouldn’t be grateful (or ungrateful) to some extent about how their parents raised them. Can you in all honesty tell me that you became the person you are today all on your own and your parents had nothing to do with it?

17. Permalink # Eshin said

    To Phil…

    I’m not going down this road. I already said my footing on posting the image up was not entirely without flaw. That wasn’t my issue.

    My issue was with people being able to express anything they want without really thinking of whether it is appropriate. The question, which I do not have an answer yet and doubt I will, is do we let have to let the garbage in along with the intelligents ideas. My reference was more to the people who commented on the post. The reason why Conrad was referenced was because of the earlier post on your website. My issue wasn’t with him posting up pictures of the women so much.

    This post wasn’t pornographic and that was not what the original post was debating.

    This isn’t the same moral debate that so many other blogs found themselves in recently. This was intended to be different. Question – would it please you to have some say some of those things about your own mother, for instance?

    I wouldn’t, and I disagreed with what was posted up as comments. To be honest, I niether care or don’t care if Conrad wants to post these pictures up. I merely offer the question up for debate on whether or not free speech is a good thing when we have to listen to comments (commentors, not Conrad).

    I never considered the picture pornographic (my points were directed at the model’s right to control her image). And yes, I am related to Mary Whitehouse. She’s my cousin twice removed on my father’s uncle’s mother’s side. Gawd bless her.

18. Permalink # Phil said

    Sorry but I am cracking up over here – by the way – I intend to try your friends bar.

19. Permalink # Eshin said

    Good on yah. But really go for the weekends, as during the weekdays it’s sort of becomes like a ghost town. They still need to generate more hype.

20. Permalink # Oooo said

    You are obviously not being raised in a chinese family… there are things that my parents taught me not to do but obviously I didnt follow them. lets take drugs addict as an example. are u trying to tell me that their parents tell them to take drugs?? or that their parents teach them to take drugs??? I pressume not.. a person got to be responsible for what they are doing or what they are going to do and it has and will and shall have nothing to do with the parents… dun suppose you will blame your parents for not educating you if you turn out to be a jerk or a failure in life right?? be fair …what you do and choose to behave has nothing got to do with parents… even if they teaches you to be the most perfect gentle person on earth and u turn out to be a jerk..well to this point. I am not refering to you or your family and if you misunderstood it..then I am sorry… oh another example, remember the woman from singapore who had a mass orgy in some country?? both her parents are educated person and her dad is a professor…

21. Permalink # Eshin said

    While I’m sure I should stand by my reasons for insulting these people on the basis of their parent’s parenting, this is a completely different issue. I suspect (not proven and no evidence) that you are being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

    However, to answer you.

    I have a feeling that you like to think of yourself in a vacuum and that you just sprang up with who you are today because of yourself. Well, congratulations. Nothing and no-one has ever touched your life then truly. You like to think of yourself as being a free speech supporter but in actual fact, the more I think about it, the more I have a feeling you just hide behind this “say what you want to say”, brutal honesty of yours so that you can get your opinion out and not have to listen to what other people have to say.

    Enough of the bitching from my side. On to some more valid points with your comment.

    You are your own person. Correct. You should have the facilities and capabilities to determine your own decisions and the consequences derived from them. Parents are perhaps not the sole cause of people being who they are. But you cannot deny that it is part of the influence on them. Some people do respect what their parents taught them, and do remember the lessons of their youth or further. Some people strive to be the person that their parents would want them to be. And some people are thankful for that.

    But parents are a part of the society and community structure that we live in. They might, in most cases, be the most important influence in that societal structure for most people. Or they might not be. There is no denying that, in the majority of cases (I’m obviously counting you as an exception), that this parental influence is a huge part of the forming a person’s traits and characteristics. The chances that you are a well-balanced individual are quite high if you come from a loving, caring family. Abuse is sometimes passed down too from abusive parent to abusive child who becomes a parent. Not saying that they will be but there is evidence to show that is the case. On a simple level, traditions are passed down from generation to generation and that affects maybe how you behave. Christmas was celebrated in my family, so 25th December, Christmas time it is.

22. Permalink # Eshin said

    What I am in fact saying, is that parents as part of society, and as part of the influencers in one’s life are going to affect you. And society, likewise, is going to affect you equally too. Hence my criticism of the commenters in my original post. I just make my stand to say that it is wrong. Maybe it has an impact on society or maybe it doesn’t.

    I’ve already influenced you to say and think things with my post whether you like it or not.

    Maybe you would like us to do away with the education system and family bonds too if you think that from the moment we are born, we can all think and act as independant and capable human beings?

    In reference to Annabel Chong, who I believe you are refering to, I believe it was said that she was raped at some stage in her life and that by doing such work, took away the power that those that perpetrated that crime to her had over her. Believe it or not.

    Or perhaps it was the overbearing nature of Singaporean society? Or the overbearing nature of her parents as “educated folk”? She maybe felt the need to be free from the restraints of the conventions of society. I don’t know.

    What I did notice when I watched her quasi-documentary film Sex (see I’m no angel), was that she made a big song and dance about being liberal and the right to express herself. However, all around her in the “documentary” there was evidence that at the end of the day, she was just being used and exploited all over again.

    No, society, and parents should be an important part of that, do have an influence in who you become. While society and parents cannot be held directly accountable for crimes committed by a person, it does represent a situation where society and/or parents have failed that person too.