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1. Permalink # Eyal said

   If Bush is Nazi then does that make Britain a Nazi collaborator nation?

2. Permalink # Nadim said

   Not really.

   The Bush family profited from the tragedy of war and have never paid the price for that or are remotely apologetic about it.

   They have a history of profitting from the hardship of others. George Snr. put Noriega into power in Panama although he did oust him from power.

   My father resisted the Nazi’s back in the Netherlands during WW2, fighting a Nazi who believed in the righteousness of his cause. Bush is another righteous SOB who at times displays the same qualities as that devil-spawn Hitler showed – righteous hatred, politiking connivity, and at times presenting a comical charicature that would be humourous had he not been so dangerous.

   I will never abide by anything that that collaborator-swine Bush has to say nor support his illegal world conquering adventures in other people’s sovereign lands.

   As for Britain being a Nazi collaborator nation, it has paid its dues more than ten-fold during WW2 in its defiance against the Nazi’s (might I add that it’s forgetten it did it pretty much single-handedly for a few years). Tony Blair, on the other hand, is a collaborator too in the atrocities of war. I can only liken Britain’s predicament to that of Italy’s during WW2. Where a charismatic leader held sway over his people but in the end proved to be nothing more than lapdog for the tyrant that sought to rule the world.

3. Permalink # Eyal said

   Well, talking about defiance of the Nazi’s, without the US it is clear that history would have been different, they paid their dues as well, or maybe in the case of the US 292,131 American lives don’t count?

   Secondly, Bush’s agenda is not wiping out ethnic groups and setting up a ruling race – which was the corner stone of Nazi ideology and action plan. So as bad as some of his actions may be, they are not the same as those of Nazi Germany – and that is the corner of my argument.

   Third, Musolini was not exactly an innocent gullible leader accidentally swayed in one direction..

   In short, disapproving Bush’s actions is fine, but when using historical comparisons one must be cautious not to let emotions cloud reason.

4. Permalink # Nadim said

   I was not comparing the US to Nazi Germany. Merely stating that the Bush family has not paid it’s dues for being Nazi sympathizers.

   The sacrifice of US service men and women during WW2 should be respected as should all the people who fell during that conflict. I am aware of their sacrifice. Having a Bush in power, who collaborated with the enemy is a disrespect to their honour.

   Nazi Germany was not based on the ethnic cleansing of an entire race. It was a terrible by-product of the desire to better the German people’s interests. Hitler wanted the world to be a better place for Germans and part of that was a misguided belief that the extermination of an entire race was a solution to that.

   Let us also not forget the people that filled his death camps that were not of Jewish descent.

   Now, Bush has not yet gone down this road. But I count myself in the few that want his “America First” policy checked. His is a policy that puts America first, to the detriment of other nations with the same dangerous righteousness. Hence my original post on Asian countries sending their people to Iraq simply to demonstrate they are part of the coalition of the willing or else suffer the economic consequences of America not economically supporting them. You are either with us or against us, indeed.

   Guatanamo is a far cry from the death camps of WW2 Europe yet the past should serve as chilling reminder of what happens when we start to detain people without warrant or basic human rights, purely to protect our interests. The Jewish people, wrongly, were demonized by Hitler as economic and social enemy of the people. The atrocities committed in the name of the German people were done because much of the populace believed it to be the case. Even if there was opposition, many decent folk believed it was necessary to have a little “nastiness” to make Germany great. So what if some people’s human rights were non-existant. It’s making Germany secure again, isn’t it???? I am just raising the questioning voice to ensure that this does not become our modern day holocaust.

   I know the situations are not entirely the same. I am responsible for perhaps opening that door for a messy comparison. I am merely remembering the past lessons of extremism. Today, I am caught in between the righteous extremism of US policy and the ideological fanaticism that is Islamic fundamentalism.

   I am not demonizing the American people. I am demonizing Bush and his foreign policy. Bush is the descendant of Nazi sympathizers and collaborators. And that does not sit right with me nor should it sit right with the memory of those who sacrificed themselves fighting against the Nazi’s, whether they be civilian or military, Jewish or non-Jewish.

5. Permalink # Marios said

   Nadim I think you need to clarify your position on Nazi Germany here.

   “The atrocities committed in the name of the German people were done because much of the populace believed it to be the case. Even if there was opposition, many decent folk believed it was necessary to have a little “nastiness” to make Germany great.”

   I would be incredibly interested to know on which evidence you base this statement. I think you are grossly misjudging an entire nation here and “demonizing” the German people in exactly the way that you are trying to avoid doing with the Americans. My grandfather was a communications officer in the German army in WWII and he never fired a bullet at anyone. You know how he was conscripted? He was dragged from his home in front of his wife, by the SS, and had a gun put to his head. His choice to join the army was fairly simple. There were few conscientious objectors to the war in Germany – you either joined the war effort or suffered a similar fate to the “enemy”. If you have spoken to as many Germans of that generation as I have I think you will find that the vast majority were appalled at the course Hitler was pursuing.

   Don’t get me wrong. I wouldn’t dream about trying to defend Nazism. It remains the largest mistake in world history and was a terrible crime against humanity. Sadly millions had to die before it was stopped. Of course there were many Germans (such as those in the SS) who are guilty of heinous crimes (as you pointed out), but would you demonize the whole Iraqi people because of the actions of Saddam Hussein and his Republican Guard/Secret Police?

   However, you know that I agree with your views on Bush. His foreign policy is not only flawed, but downright dangerous. It is claimed the US spends enough on its military in a single year to wipe out third-world debt. Perhaps if they redressed this imbalance they wouldn’t need so many weapons to “defend” their territory.
   Let’s just hope that he doesn’t get a second term, and that his (and Blairs) mistakes can be rectified by future governments.

6. Permalink # Nadim said

   Right. Okay.

   What I was trying to say was that I suspect most Germans were unaware of the extent of the atrocities that were being committed in their name. I would have to do some research into documents and documentaries to prove this next point (so don’t jump on me) but I believe that the true horror and nature of the camps that Jews and other POWs/undesirables were sent to was only revealed to the German masses when they tried the war criminals at Nuremburg.

   However, anti-semitism was well-known in Germany since Hitler took every chance to dehumanize them. It’s what I truely believe that “For evil to prosper all it takes is good men to do nothing.” At the time that Hitler grew to power, Germany was still reeling from the defeat from WW1. Espousing German strength, pride and dignity was probably considered a good thing in an air of defeatism. This allowed a shambled political system, along with the desire to rise up from being humiliated in WW1, to bring Hitler to power. I’m sure many ordinary Germans realized too late the dangerous path that Hitler took them on. But at the same time, he was allowed to come to power in part due to complacency on many people’s part in the early stages and the old question – “Maybe he brings something new to the table? This might work.”

   In regards to your grandfather and other conscientious objectors, to be honest with you, for me this maybe another time frame I’m referring to. I’m referring more to the period of the late 1920′s and first half of the 1930′s, so pre-war period.

   The parallel I’m drawing in relation to the whole Bush policy is that I believe that the Americans are in danger of being in the same complacent mindset. I am sure that for most Americans the act of terror that was 911 shook their world. Quite rightly so. But let them not be complacent to sign away their civil rights, their right to question, and more importantly to know what is being done in their name and interests, simply in the name of security and wanting to feel secure.

   And I, for one, am not going to be complacent to let Bush commit atrocities and breach international law in the name of what he thinks is the “world community”. So I will speak out against Bush and his policies. Even more so because I did not vote for him.

   No I am not demonizing the American people. I am not demonizing the German people (the images of the open air camps that were used to house a nation of German POW’s at the end of the war were not as disturbing as the images of the death camps but chilling and pityful). Over half a century of being reminded about WW2 has developed a psyche of apologist in many of the younger Germans today (almost to a fault). Germany has paid it’s dues.

   The Bush family has not as collaborators. Bush’s grandfather profited from the tragedy that was Nazism. They were not in the terrible battlefields of Europe. They were not in the deathcamps. They were not made to pay for that. So many American Nazi sympathizers and anti-semites have not had to pay their dues, like Grand-Daddy Bush or Henry Ford.

   Okay, now it’s 5 30 in the morning and I’m tired. So if you all feel like jumping on any inaccuracies in what I’ve typed, then please feel free to do so.

   But I will not apologize for despising Bush.